Happy Leap Day, readers!
As you may or may not know, Wars and Politics of Ice and Fire has its own Tumblr page (as well as its own Twitter and Facebook pages). Even more excitingly, we here at the blog have partnered with ASOIAF University to answer questions about A Song of Ice and Fire. We – that is, SomethingLikeaLawyer and I – take the text-based questions submitted to us, write up thoughtful, text-based answers, and publish these answers on the Tumblr.
A very busy week at Wars and Politics of Ice and Fire Headquarters. I can’t say enough times how legitimately amazing at military discussions the Hand is, and it’s proven true this week, with considerations on Dornish spear and curved sword usage. He also did a wonderful job talking about Robert’s Rebellion, and why it really benefited no noble house to support Aerys II in Robert’s Rebellion. Also very excitingly, the Hand published his first essay of 2016 – a military analysis of Euron Greyjoy! I also published an essay this week – the next piece in Heirs in the Shadows, The Plowman at the Gates, and talked a little about possible words for House Ryswell and Maekar’s comparatively large family against his dynastic unimportance.
Without further ado, here’s The Ravenry for the Week of February 22:
- NFriel briefly surveys upcoming series on the blog
- NFriel considers why the future Aegon V would have been betrothed to Daella
- NFriel clarifies details about the upcoming trials in King’s Landing
- NFriel assesses the age of House Stark relative to that of other noble families in Westeros
- NFriel goes back to the trial question to underline a point about Margaery
- NFriel delves into the title “Lord of the Rainwood”
- NFriel dubs the would-be Aegon VI with a fitting “u” nickname
- NFriel imagines words for House Ryswell
- NFriel speculates why Cersei remained unbetrothed at the time of Robert’s Rebellion
- SomethingLikeaLawyer discusses Night’s Watch oathbreaking and Arya
- SomethingLikeaLawyer explains why Robb didn’t reach out to the Dornish for aid
- NFriel analyzes Prince Daeron the Drunken
- NFriel believes Rhaegar was not capable of love
- NFriel lays out a possible future arc for Jaime
- NFriel expands upon the thematic appropriateness of a possible Brienne fate
- NFriel confirms Targaryen uncle-niece marriage
- SomethingLikeaLawyer affirms the anarchy Renly succeeding would bring
- SomethingLikeaLawyer answers why Stannis kept the incest information from Robert (and responds to a comment)
- SomethingLikeaLawyer decides how many ironborn remained in the Riverlands after the Hoare kings’ conquest
- SomethingLikeaLawyer explores justification for Westerosi wars
- SomethingLikeaLawyer points out how Robert was able to travel out of the Vale at the beginning of the Rebellion
- SomethingLikeaLawyer verifies the ability to leave the Second Sons
- SomethingLikeaLawyer talks about his most interesting battle
- NFriel examines why Myrcella was betrothed to Trystane, rather than Quentyn, Martell
- NFriel briefly notes why Barbrey Dustin may still be ruling in Barrowton
- SomethingLikeaLawyer suspects a Ned-Stannis team could have exposed the incest truth
- SomethingLikeaLawyer hypothesizes about Aemond dying from Lucerys Velaryon’s childhood knife attack
- SomethingLikeaLawyer contemplates the merits of elected officers
- SomethingLikeaLawyer figures out what might have changed if Loras had been sent against the Mountain instead of Beric
- SomethingLikeaLawyer lists the only way he thinks Cersei could have been set aside
- SomethingLikeaLawyer points to how the would-be Aegon VI could get a dragon
- SomethingLikeaLawyer tackles the details of Dornish succession
- SomethingLikeaLawyer emphasizes the complications of the legal framework of the Dance
- SomethingLikeaLawyer investigates female succession in relation to House Stark
- NFriel does not think it possible for Willam Dustin to be alive
- NFriel balances the complicated question of evil between Arya and the Faceless Men
- NFriel disagrees on much similarity between Stannis and the mythical Bloodstone Emperor
- NFriel judges how circumstances might have changed if Daemon had been younger than the other Great Bastards
- SomethingLikeaLawyer looks to a (mostly) positive future for the Tyrells
- SomethingLikeaLawyer briefly describes why Young Aegon did not head straight for King’s Landing
- SomethingLikeaLawyer briefly describes Rhaegel’s potential kingship
- NFriel underlines the importance of circumstances in Tywin’s plans for Rhaegar and Cersei
- NFriel believes Joffrey thought of Robert as his true father
- NFriel gives possible reasons why the Valyrians never conquered Westeros
- NFriel supposes Viserys might have been more stable had his elder brothers lived
- NFriel goes into the reasoning for the naming of Aegon II’s children
- NFriel presumes Aegon the Conqueror used Common Tongue, not High Valyrian, at court
- SomethingLikeaLawyer refuses to name Jaehaerys I a hypocrite
- SomethingLikeaLawyer puts himself in the shoes of different noble regions in Robert’s Rebellion
- SomethingLikeaLawyer researches the “delay” in Daemon Blackfyre’s rebellion
- SomethingLikeaLawyer interprets the connection between the Dornish and spears
- NFriel offers thoughts on House Darry
- SomethingLikeaLawyer relates Tumblr friend PoorQuentyn’s point on the Others and necromancy
- NFriel stresses how much the story changes if Jacaerys Velaryon was trueborn
- SomethingLikeaLawyer reveals why Tywin stayed out of the southron ambitions fostering scheme
- NFriel judges what might be in the Lands of Always Winter
- SomethingLikeaLawyer studies the usefulness of curved swords in Dorne
- NFriel argues against blaming Jaehaerys I for the Dance
- NFriel points to Jaime’s unclaimed place as heir for why he was allowed to keep Oathkeeper
- NFriel reminds that Aerea and Rhalla Targaryen’s fates are unknown
- NFriel doubts much would change if Lyanna left a note
- NFriel ponders what Ellyn Reyne might have been trying to do seducing Tytos Lannister
- NFriel makes a cute connection between Maester the mule and Mance Rayder’s son
- NFriel weighs wargs versus dragons
- NFriel pinpoints when (but not why) Tywin was knighted
- NFriel foresees what the ASOIAF fandom might be like post-novels
- NFriel wonders if a skinchanger could control a dragon
- NFriel challenges the idea of Alyssa Velaryon and Jaehaerys I pridefully keeping power for themselves
- SomethingLikeaLawyer evaluates coalition-building and Jaehaerys II
- SomethingLikeaLawyer names no winner as the winner of the Dance
- NFriel reviews Maekar’s having a large family in light of being a fourth son
- NFriel allows Jaime to be the valonqar even with only one human hand
- NFriel (partially) untangles the thorny succession problem if it were revealed current-day that Daeron II was illegitimate
- NFriel assesses a Jaqen H’gar theory
- SomethingLikeaLawyer rejects the idea of the Great Council of 101 AC as Jaehaerys’ greatest mistake
As always, we love to hear your text-based questions, so if you have a burning question about ASOIAF, click this link to send us a raven.
Be safe and make good choices,
The Queen Regent (NFriel)
Wars and Politics of Ice and Fire 
Great work!
The idea about Jaqen trying to kill Bloodraven is that Aegon
supporters hired the Faceless Men because Bloodraven is
historically an enemy of the Blackfyres. He might be in Oldtown
to steal the Glass Candle and use it to track down Bloodraven. 🙂
Desire and lust? That seems much less likely to have factored over love for Rhaegar’s impulsiveness in my view. I mean, Ned makes that comparison between Rhaegar and Robert very clearly. And if her name was the last thing he whispers as he lay dying on the Trident I don’t think he regarded Lyanna with that shallow of a mindset. To me, based on everything we know about Lyanna’s personality (wild, spontaneous, energetic, fierce) I feel if anyone was suited to make gloomy, sullen Rhaegar fall in love it would be her. And I definitely think it was her strength of character that really attracted him. Consider how Kevan and Cersei immediately assumed beauty was what drew Rhaegar’s attention to Lyanna, and then go to the criticism of Robert by people like Ned on how he only saw the beautiful surface or Lyanna and didn’t really know her. It’s almost begging us to assume Rhaegar and Lyanna’s relationship was in direct contrast to that.
It seems to me more that people really go deep into their relationship even though so far everything we have is very much second hand (which I suspect will change come the next book and we’ll get some hard answers). Rhaegar abducted Lyanna! No, Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love! No, Rhaegar had made Lyanna believe he loved her and convinced her to run away with him!
Now personally I suspect that Rhaegar’s main motivation in it all was those kids, since even if he couldn’t have predicted that this would lead to open rebellion he must have known that it was going to go badly, but I’m not going to speculate as to what his feelings were.
Come to think of it, I wonder who exactly reported that Rhaegar had gone off with Lyanna?
True, I’m just laying odds that based on most descriptions of Rhaegar desire/lust wasn’t going to be something that drove him to make rash decisions.
As to your last point I always wondered about that, because that whistle blower likely helped blow this whole conflict up. By the time Rhaegar and Lyanna were wedded and bedded there really wouldn’t have been much anyone could legally do to dissolve it. And it’s part of why I think Rhaegar was so out of contact with everything that happened was because he had no idea anyone even knew about him and Lyanna running off.
Well Rhaegar was already married by that point, to Elia Martell. Since he didn’t have dragons, he was past the point where any marriage to her could have ever been considered legal (plus that was usually between Targaryens I think).
Now did he and Lyanna go through the steps of marriage? I believe so. IIRC the place they met up at has a weirwood tree, a common point of marriages by followers of the Old Gods and I find it unlikely that Lyanna would have agreed to just be Rhaegar’s lover.
Of course that bit about marriage does put some grey on Rhaegar’s actions. There’s no way he could have believed that he could just set Elia aside and marry Lyanna, he was too much part of central Westeros politics to be ignorant of just what the reaction would be from Martells, Starks and Targaryens.
I don’t think he was going to set Elia aside either, considering the dragon must have three heads and Jaime’s nightmares about Rhaegar putting his faith in watching over his family. Polygamy was still a thing with the Targaryeans if you go way back to Maegor, who did marry several non-Targaryeans. And it’s not like the Dornish have been shy about polyamory in general even if they could never make it official like the Targaryeans. And consider that THREE members of the Kingsguard were with Lyanna, they would have known Westerosi law as well as anyone, so any ceremony she and Rhaegar went through must have been considered legitimate to them enough to stay and defend who they believed was the heir.
Maegor was something of a disaster whose polygamous actions cost him his position as Hand of the King, forced women to marry him, had quite a few people murdered and managed to push his own family into rebellion against him. If Rhaegar tried to use him as precedent, that probably would have just encouraged people to take that Southron Ambitions idea more seriously before they’d be forced to outright rebel.
After that, this isn’t a matter of love for the Dornish. This is a question of politics and power. With Elia married to Rhaegar the Martells could reasonably expect to expand power at the court the same way the Lannisters would when Cersei married Robert. Rhaegar taking Lyanna isn’t just an insult to the Martell family, which is bad enough. It’s suggesting their position itself will be reduced to fighting with the Starks for influence. The Martells probably remember Aegon the Unworthy and all the headaches he produced just as well as anyone else.
As for the Kingsguard, these are the same guys who stood and watched as Aerys II went crazier and crazier. They were true to their oaths, not what they must have known was smart or legal.
I only quoted him for a non-Targ example, Aegon held the real precedent with his sister wives and whose going to disparg his memory?
Eh, depends on how inclusive Elia was in on the whole deal. Rhaegar shared a lot of his prophecy knowledge with her. They might have been able to work something out with her family if they stood together on Lyanna. I’m not saying they’d have been PLEASED by it but given once again their own proliferate bastard situation of Sands running around never seeming to arise those same political headaches that Aegon IV’s did.
Hey, that is not true, those oaths ARE part of the legal matrix of Westeros, and also those oaths oblige them to defend and obey the ROYAL person, not one they’d know was illegitimate. I mean they specifically make the point to Jaime they know EXACTLY where the legal line of the oath draws them at. Doesn’t make it moral but you can’t accuse them on a legal basis.
The age of the Starks (and most things in the books) is hard to say. Science fiction has a tendency to make things bigger, so from that stance they might actually date back that far. If we view it from in-universe from a more realistic perspective, they wouldn’t be the first noble family to claim a long and largely fake line. I believe that in real life either Alaric or Theodoric’s biographers claimed they had a 10,000 year line, probably to give them more credibility over states like Rome.